Context: A great analysis on Day 2s and understanding date flakes by Organic
It seems that a common sticking point for a lot of guys is that they get talking to a girl, things are going well, they like her, and then they just say goodbye. Or other times, they get her number, or even set up a date, but the girl never shows up, and
Fake numbers, flakes, girls losing interest, excuses: “I’m busy washing my cat.”…
Our goal here isn’t just to talk to women and then never see them again. So, let’s talk about how to make something happen beyond the first encounter.
One option is to just say goodbye and hope you will see her again. Unless she goes to your high school, or sits two cubicles away from you at work… you WON’T see her again. So, forget it.
Now, a lot of guys realize that they have to do something, so they get her phone number or email. And then they’ll get excited because they think they just scored with that girl. You “got the digits” – you’re The Man. Right? …Wrong. Guys who know what they’re doing with women realize that phone numbers don’t mean anything. Girls often give out their numbers (or even fake numbers), with no intention of ever seeing the guy again.
Simply getting her contact information leaves a lot of work to be done on the phone (or email.) You’ll be stuck wondering if she will pick up the phone, if you should leave a message, if you should wait three days, or five?… You won’t be sure if anything will ever come of it. Just getting a phone number should ONLY be done when there are serious time constraints. If you only have 3 minutes to work your magic, then go for it – at least you can try. Otherwise, *never* settle for just a phone number.
Another option is to continue the interaction, and ideally, get her home the same day you meet her. Venue changing and getting her to an isolated location will be valuable for a number of obvious reasons. However, it’s very common that a guy doesn’t have the time or the means of getting her to an isolated place the same day. It’s a great option, but it’s a topic for another discussion.
So, if you want to end an interaction with a woman and you want to see her again, the answer is simple: Make solid plans to meet again. We’ll call it a “day 2”, since we don’t want it falling in to the stereotype of a “date”. This includes plans for what you’re going to do and when you’re going to do it. And, of course, it includes getting her phone number. After you’ve made plans, it will be obvious that you need her number, and she will never refuse it.
The goal is to set plans when your with her that are so solid, that she will show up at the next point in time when you meet again. Then, the seduction will continue. But, if you can’t cross the gap in time you won’t be able to continue.
When I’ve made solid plans for a day 2 with a girl and I‘ve done everything right, I can almost guarantee that she will show up. When I’m done, I won’t be left wondering what’s going to happen, and neither will she. Setting up a day 2 is so much better than settling for a phone number. If you can’t convince her to meet you in person… how will you be able to do it over the phone? You will have her in front of you, and you can judge her reactions. The better you get at calibrating a girl’s reactions, the better you will be at making sure she is committed to meet you again.
Why do girls flake?
In order to eliminate flakes, it’s important to know why girls are flaking. Here are the main reasons:
** They were never really convinced, or never really committed to it. Often people agree to something, but don’t really intend to do it. Maybe, she likes the day 2 plans at the time, but later she will forget about it, or forget why she said yes. The fact is she never really intended to go. Or, she could be lazy and when the time comes to meet you, she just feels like staying home instead.
** They talk themselves out of it. Or more commonly, their friends talk them out of it. She may really like you when she meets you, but later her logical mind kicks in and she convinces herself not to go. Some girls may get nervous, or feel like it’s a hassle to get all dressed up and go out. Or it may be that the attraction she felt fades away, and she doesn’t have a logical reason why she was attracted to you. Or, their social conditioning will kick in (I can’t go out with some guy I met at a bar that night. He was probably drunk, etc…. I don’t even know who he is.) Her friends may also say any of these things to her. Never underestimate the influence of her friends.
** Something really does come up. When this happens, you can usually tell. The woman will be apologetic, and want to set up another date. Often this is really good, because you can set up a better date, or make her commit to paying for it or making it up to you in some other way. If she isn’t willing to reschedule AND make it up to you for flaking… then it’s probably not really a genuine flake.
** She met another guy in between your first and second meetings. This could be because she is really hot and meets lots of guys, or it could just be really bad timing.
** She’s just a flakey girl and doesn’t ever meet up with anyone for anything at any particular time. There are some people in the world like this.
When addressing the sticking point of flakes, it’s important to understand their cause. Not settling for just a phone number will eliminate a large percentage of flakes. And addressing the main causes of flakes when the woman is in front of you will ensure that she shows up for the day 2.
9 Steps to a Solid Day 2
Here it is. This is the basic pattern of any good day 2 close. There may be some variation, but usually all of these steps will be present in some form.
Step 1: Be sure she wants to meet you.
Before you set up the day 2, it is important to make sure you have generated enough attraction and enough comfort. You must test this, and there are many ways to test. It can be done non-verbally: does she respond well to your touch, or is she touching you back? Is she making strong eye contact and paying close attention to you? Or, this can be done verbally: you can say something like “we’ve got a really great vibe going.” If she looks away and meekly says “uh…yeah, I guess,” then you know she isn’t ready yet. If she looks into your eyes and warmly says “yeah, totally,” then, you know she’s ready.
The first step is that you must have enough attraction and comfort. If you test her, and think that she isn’t responding well enough. Go back a step and keep chatting her up, then test again later.
In general, you always want to test to see if you have enough attraction and rapport. This doesn’t mean that she has to be in love with you, but she must be excited enough to take the next step with you. When testing her, it’s better to know that she’s not interested now, while she’s in front of you, then waste time calling and emailing her later. A lot of guy’s might not test a girl because they don’t want her to say “no.” But, really you will save yourself time and energy by finding out sooner.
If you are getting bad numbers or a lot of flakes, the problem is that you either didn’t have enough attraction or enough comfort.
For most guys, the problem is not enough attraction. They didn’t distinguish themselves from other guys. I met one girl and when I called her later she said that she was actually just new in town and wanted to make some friends. In the end, all she wanted was a friend, and we never actually met up.
Sometimes there is enough attraction, but there is not enough comfort. This happened to me recently when I was under time constraints and the girl told me she was a bit of an introvert and didn’t usually talk to strangers. She just didn’t know anything about me. If I had more time, she would’ve become more comfortable. Basically, if you test and find that she is not attracted enough… go back and do more attraction. If she doesn’t feel comfortable, then build more comfort and trust. Don’t push for a phone number or a day 2, but keep gaming her and then test again. Make sure she wants it.
When you offer opportunities, and suggestions, you can gauge her reactions. Don’t expect her to jump up and suggest the day 2 (although, sometimes she will do this). It’s the man’s job to lead, so don’t be too vague and wishy washy. While on the other hand, you don’t want to be so explicit that has a chance to say “No.” Instead, you are giving her a chance to shrug or give an un-enthusiastic “alright.” If she has to verbalize “No,” it will make the job of changing her mind very difficult. So remember to test.
Step 2: Create a context for meeting her.
Once it seems that she is attracted to you, and you are attracted to her, you want to suggest a second meeting. Find a commonality or some kind of excuse for a second meeting. An example would be if she says that she likes art, I would say “oh, I’ll have to show you my art sometime.” In a way, I’m still testing her attraction. So, pay attention to how she reacts.. If she excitedly says “yeah, I want to see it.” – good. If she just says “hmmmm… I’m sure it’s very nice.” – bad. If you are having trouble finding commonalities, you can throw out a generic “hey, we should hang out some time.” Or “This is a great conversation, we’ll have to continue it another time.” You should now have a pretty good idea where she stands. If she’s not showing lots of interest, go back and generate more attraction. If she responds well, you’ve already suggested a meeting and you can keep going. You can also dive deeper into your commonalities to get her more excited about meeting for that reason.
Having an excuse to meet again will help because it will flow naturally into the conversation, but it will also eliminate a main cause of flakes. It will give her an excuse to tell her friends, and to tell herself. She can say “yeah, I’m going to see his artwork.” While really in the back of her mind, she knows why she is really going to see you.
Something else that I might say at this point is something like: “You know, I go to bars, and I meet a lot of people. And sometimes, I might meet them later, and it turns out they’re all weird and stuff. But, it’s rare that I ever meet anyone that I connect with like this.” Giving her the feeling that this is a special case will eliminate the objection that she can’t go out with some random guy she met in a bar. Overcome this objection before she ever mentions it.
Step 3: Find out when she is free.
Now it’s time to find out when she is free. Ask her “what are you doing Monday night?” “What are you doing Tuesday?” Wait until you’ve found out when she is free before you tell her what you’re doing.
Don’t tell her about a great thing that’s happening Tuesday, and THEN ask her what she’s doing Tuesday (If she’s busy on Tuesday, you’ve wasted your time.) So, find out when she’s free first.
Lance uses a fun routine for this:
You: “What are you doing Friday?”
You: “Oh”… *pause and wait for her to speak*
Her: “what are you doing Friday?”
You: “I’m busy.”
Her: “Doing what?”
You: “I’ve got a date with you.”
You don’t want to let her think that you’re never busy, or that you’ll cancel any plans to meet with her. Don’t tell her: “well, I’m free anytime, so we can do it whenever you want.” – even if this is true. And you want her to know that your time is valuable and you don’t tolerate flakes.
If you ask, and she doesn’t have any free time, or there is no time when you two can meet, you may need more attraction still. One option is to call her on it. Bust on her for not being able to commit. And keep persisting until you find a good time. If nothing works, you can make plans to do an indefinite something and set a definite time to call her, but this will inevitably be weaker.
Step 4: Have her imagine the future plans with you.
After you’ve found an excuse to meet, and you’ve found out when she’s free, it’s time to sell her on the day 2. You don’t have to make it sound like the most amazing dream date ever, but you should describe it with enthusiasm, and make it enjoyable. Have something planned and describe it well. If you are going to a café, tell her that “it’s this great little café near my house and they get the best coffee beans imported, and it’s a cute little older couple that owns it, etc. etc….” If you aren’t excited about the day 2, then find something more exciting. She should be excited. Remember, you don’t want her showing up just for some fun activities, you want her to be meeting YOU. So, set it up as a fun time that you two will have together.
Tell her what you’re going to do and get her imagining it. Give her lots of details. Get her to really think about what you are going to do. And, when you talk about the day 2, use the word “we.” Another key to eliminating flakes is to really get it into her mind, because this will make sure that she sets her intentions. Take her mind into the future and imagine the day 2 together.
Here’s an example (credit: Grant):
“We’re going to be walking through the park, and it’s going to be windy…. And you’ll hair will get all messed up, and you’ll ask me if it looks alright. I’ll say “yes”, but actually you’ll look like a total dork.”
Don’t ask for the date, don’t ask her “do you prefer coffee or dinner?” and definitely don’t ask her “what do you want to do?” Don’t bumble through it like you have no idea what you’re doing. Tell her what’s going to happen. And when you’re done, she should know what to expect. Tell her what to wear, and when to arrive. Tell her that she’ll have to buzz the front door, tell her what to say when she sees you next time.
Grant has a great little routine that adds details in all the right ways…
He’ll ask: “What kind of perfume do you have?”
Her: “Chanelle, etc..”
Him: “Wear the chanelle.”
To help the process of getting the day 2 into her head, have your day 2 planned. Know what you’re going to do so that you can really describe it for her. Have this written into your routine stack, if you have one, so that you know what you’re going to say. Make it sound fun and exciting and get her feeling the excitement. This shouldn’t feel like you’re overselling, but rather just showing enthusiasm for something that you know will be fun anyway. Make sure she knows what’s going to happen, so she feels the excitement and visibly wants to meet up with you.
Make sure you have a good day 2 planned. I’m not going to go over what a good day 2 is, but if it is too difficult for her, or requires too much commitment from her, then get a new day 2 plan. If it’s too easy for her, she might be more likely to flake because she’s thinking it’s not too important. You want it to be just right. And, always bring her into your reality.
Step 5: Make her say “Yes.”
Get her to agree to it! Now, this is where you really want to test her. Make her say “yes, I’ll be there! I can’t wait to come!” Make her say it with enthusiasm. At this point, it’s better to get her to say “no,” or to express her objections, than to have her flake. A lot of guys wont test her, because they are afraid she will say no, but it’s better than her not showing up.
Don’t accept a weak “ok.” Cancel the plans, if she wont commit 100%. Tell her that you’ve changed your mind. This is good for two reasons…. One, it will save you the time of waiting around for a girl that MIGHT show up. And two, it will show non-neediness and scarcity that will often generate more attraction and actually motivate her to commit. A high value guy doesn’t want flakes because he doesn’t have time, so if the girl isn’t really committed, a high value guy will not bother. Demonstrate this. Don’t be afraid to turn her away.
I met a girl recently, and I set up a day 2 and got her contact information. As I was saying goodbye, I told her to kiss me on the cheek. She refused. So, I started thinking “if she refused a kiss on the cheek, then she is going to want to go slow, or waste my time.” So, I took out the piece of paper that had her phone number on it, and I started crossing it out. I told her that it was off. (Of course, I was smiling and being nice about it, but I was also very serious.) She quickly came after me… “no, no…” and, she gave me a great kiss. Needless to say: she arrived very enthusiastically at our day 2. She knew that she should appreciate the opportunity.
Step 6: Get her phone number.
Ok. Once you’ve tested and tested again to make sure that she is attracted to you, and feels comfortable with you. And you know that you like her. And, she has committed to a day 2 with you. Finally, you can get her phone number…. At this point, it’s almost assumed. She will have to give it to you. You don’t need any tricks or special lines…. You just tell her: “Alright, what’s your phone number?” Assume she is going to give it to you, because it is obvious that you will need it. If she doesn’t want to give her phone number now, something is wrong. If she doesn’t give her number, go back a few steps and start again. She might not give you her phone number because she lives with her boyfriend, or she has some other legitimate excuse. Be sensitive of this. However, if she just doesn’t want to give you her number, be weary of a flake.
Step 7: Call the number right away.
Once you get her number, call her right there. First, this will ensure that you got the right phone number, and second she will have your number on her caller ID.
A favorite routine that we teach in our workshops (credit: Wilder) is to call her right there and have a conversation with her on the phone. She will be right next to you of course. Tell her that she must be excited when you call. Have her practice enthusiastically saying “Hey, Dan… Wow! I’m so happy you called!” Make her say this, or make her express some enthusiasm and excitement. Even if she is partially faking the excitement, it will help her convince herself that she is excited. Have a short phone conversation with her and tell her “ok, now we’ve got our first phone call out of the way, so next time it won’t be awkward.”
Remembering why women flake, we want to appeal to her social group. There are two approaches you can take. One, if she is with a boyfriend, etc. Be super discreet, and show her that you can be discreet. Have her tell you her number and memorize it, and don’t whip out your cell phone in front of everybody. Be smooth.
On the other hand, if her friends all like you and want to help her, then be very explicit. Tell her friends what you are doing. You can even ask them if it’s ok. Her friends will love this, and then they will be pressuring her to go out with you. Great! Now she has to show up.
Step 8: Plan on calling her to confirm the day 2.
Tell her that you will call to confirm the day 2 plans. If you tell her that you are going to call, then you won’t seem needy or nervous when you do call. She will expect it. You can even schedule a time when you will call. If she flakes on your phone call, then you can bet she will be likely to flake on the date.
Step 9: Contact her before the actual meeting.
Always follow up with her to confirm. You can call or send text messages. If she is a more socially active girl, you might want to call more often because she probably meets a lot of guys and might forget about you. For example, you could set a day 2 for 10 days in the future, and then call her every 4 days to keep in her memory. When you call, don’t just confirm, but add some additional information. (“oh yeah, and make sure to bring a bottle of wine. Etc…”)
If you are concerned about her friends talking her out of it, you can call her and use this super-powered routine (credit: Lance) State her objection before she can. “It’s too bad… All of my friends were totally teasing me that I was planning to go out with some girl I met at the supermarket. And, I’m asking them ‘what, like a singles bar is so much better?’ Anyway, they’re all trying to talk me out of it. Etc…”
Follow these 9 steps to ensure solid plans for your day 2. If she doesn’t respond well at any step along the way, go back and chat her up some more, then try again. Wash Rinse Repeat. Don’t be in a hurry to do all of this. Tell stories in between, etc… take your time and let the plans develop naturally.
If you go too far, and she actually says “no”, you’ll have to change her mind, and it will be much more difficult. At any rate, always persist. She may not be ready yet, but try again and she may change her mind.
And, let’s face it… no matter what you do, and with all of this help, you will still get occasional flakes. The most important thing to remember is not to take it personally. It’s not a rejection if the girl doesn’t show up. It just means that you won’t have to waste any more time on a flakey girl.
Practice setting up day 2s to get better. Write your day 2 close into your stack, and if you’re not sure it will work, then try it on lots of girls. Get a feel for when you can use it and get a feel for how flakey the girl is. Try every time until you can really calibrate whether a girl is going to flake. Always persist, and build your calibration skills until it becomes second nature.