Context: Woodhaven offers a new way to learn “natural game” and stop the social robots.
I’ve met my share of brothers from the community. After sarging with them and watching them in the field, I have seen the same exact things over and over. They all run nearly the exact type of game, and have the same problems. I am not criticizing other people’s models, I am just providing a analysis of the EFFECT that these models are having on the bulk of the people I meet. I would estimate about 90% of random community guys I’ve met fall into this category. Again I emphasize that it is not an inherent flaw in the traditional ASF models, but more how people are interpreting these models, along with other factors related to societal conditioning.
This post will serve to help transition those people who are interested from a “nerd-like” entertainment frame to a smooth natural approach which is inherently more seductive and effective particularly in endgame.
I have not posted anything advanced in a short while, so this post is the culmination of the past few months of my work. Enjoy!
The two fundamental elements of a pickup.
The difference between techniques, mindsets and beliefs.
A paradigm shift for ASF models. A full analysis of pop-ASF game vs. natural game.
Design the frame for endgame
The Continuous Flow of Action.
1. Confident Rapport by Seth Parker
2. Rooting: Problem with the who lies more opener by Style
3. Insights – Thinking beyond the medium by Razorjack
4. Rewriting the Rules for ASF by Imperfect
1. The Two Fundamental Elements Required for Conscious and Deliberate Pickup.
Any active pickup where the man decides who he wants, approaches her and consciously moves the interaction to sex requires only two things.
-Strong and unwavering belief that the girl wants him. -An interactive context which can lead to isolation.
The reason why there is so much focus on context, is because it is something that can be learned quickly. It’s very easy to learn a few jokes and tell a few stories and memorize a few openers. Internalizing good beliefs on the other hand, usually takes months or even years. So you will see some guys on here telling us to ignore the belief / inner game stuff and just develop a strong context. While it may be beneficial to develop a really strong context, we must take care that our execution of techniques isn’t inhibiting the growth of good beliefs or installing limiting ones.
The fastest route to mastery is to continue developing strong beliefs and at the same time become familiar with a variety of contexts — get a lot of experience under your belt. Adopt a really great inner game program, and then go into the field and work your techniques. Learn to handle as many tough situations as possible – large sets, daytime isolation, amogs, direct approaches, etc. Realize it can take quite some time before your beliefs make a significant enough change such that you achieve the kind of success you’re really after.
2. Techniques, Mindsets, Beliefs and how they are related.
On the most superficial level, we have techniques. A technique is something that you say or do while interacting with a woman. We all have a great deal of conscious control over which techniques we use. On the flipside, techniques are the least effective part of who you are and quite useless without the deeper levels mindsets and beliefs.
At the very deepest level, we have our beliefs. Beliefs determine your reality, and are shaped by your identity. Unlike techniques, we have very little conscious control over our beliefs. They are so far below the surface of our awareness that it is nearly impossible to change them at will. There are probably zen monks who can consciously affect their beliefs on command, but then again, those guys aren’t trying to learn to pick up women on an internet chat board — to the best of my knowledge, anyway.
Now what most people ignore, are the mindsets behind the techniques. This is the frame through which we deliver our techniques. A mindset determines the internal dialogue that you experience throughout the pickup. A mindset can be applied to a group of techniques, and a group of mindsets is what makes up a belief. Razorjack’s thread “Insights – Thinking beyond the medium” provides a great explanation of mindsets. What he refers to as thinking beyond the medium is just assigning a mindset to each group of your techniques. It simplifies your pickup by redirecting your focus of attention. Instead of remembering 20 different technical details, you just have one mental focus – a specific mindset.
Mindsets are easier to change than beliefs, but not as easy to learn as techniques. Exerting conscious control over your mindsets is the most effective way to affect your inner game, since they are in direct contact with your belief system.
Example of a mindset:
Take the c+f line “Whoah, pointy shoes! They’re nice, but I feel sorry for the little elf you stole them from, who’s now running around barefoot.”
You can deliver the line with the mindset “She’s hot so I have to show her I’m indifferent / not impressed by her, so she thinks I’m better than her.” -or- you can deliver the line with the mindset “I care about this woman, I’m enjoying the interaction, and I am joking with her to make her laugh and feel good.”
Obviously the latter is more effective, as the former will come off insecure. Despite the fact that you are saying the same words, because you are using two different states of mind, you’ll get two dramatically different results. Not only will your results be worse, but carrying the former mindset around will only do harm to your belief system. It presupposes LOWER VALUE and lack of attraction. No good.
The end goal is to change your beliefs, since they will ultimately have the greatest effect on your game. Simple repetition of techniques without the proper mindsets or with incorrect mindsets will do damage to your belief system. You need to adopt great mindsets to insure proper development of a belief system.
3. ASF Paradigm Shift.
The traditional model in use by the majority of ASFers I’ve met is the following:
-Assume that girls must be “hooked” in order to be interested in you. (Sometimes true to varying degrees) -Approach with prepared opinion opener designed to engage girls, meanwhile feigning disinterest. -Assume since you’re approaching her, she’s automatically more valuable, so… -Go right into story to in order to display higher value, which will generate the attraction which was previously not present. -Continue to tell stories, tease girls until you get clear indication of interest. -Phase shift into “rapport / comfort” which consists of ordinary conversation, dropping the personality she was interested in initially. -Bait her into qualifying herself to you, and no matter what she says, SOI her for that. (This step ain’t so bad) -Isolate and escalate. (This one isn’t either :)
Six Common Sticking Points in Execution of the Traditional Model.
Sticking Point #1.
The first problem with this approach is that people mouth canned openers without a context for them. Style had an entire post dedicated to this point alone, so I won’t go into detail here. (Rooting – problem with the who lies more opener)
If you want to use opinion openers either: A. Genuinely care about the topic. -or- B. Make sure it’s obvious that the opinion opener is just an excuse to talk to her. (In this case, ask it and then quickly change topics)
Sticking Point #2.
Secondly, guys spend hours and hours on this website, learning material, preparing a routine stack which is designed to engage girls. These guys go out of their way to learn these girly topics of conversation which the majority of us aren’t really interested in, just to get female attention. And then on top of that, they pretend that they aren’t really interested in fucking the girls! Then, the moment they “stack” these girly openers and DHV’s, she’s CONVINCED they want something and she knows exactly what they are up to. Feigning disinterest now becomes highly incongruent. I mean seriously. To go out of your way to learn girly topics of conversation, just to have permission to talk to chicks is SUPPLICATION. Entering a females reality just so we can talk to her for a few minutes with the hopes of fucking her is ridiculous!
Here’s an analogy. What if a girl went out of her way to learn all about sports or cars or (insert masculine topic here), even though she didn’t really like or understand these things – just so she could relate to guys in conversation? This girl doesn’t really care about these things, but is pretending to, and spending hours and hours on the internet learning about them, just so she has permission to talk to guys. Does this telegraph that she has an interesting life? Is she telegraphing that she is a valued commodity? NO! Exactly the opposite. If a girl like this came up to me, and talked about things that interested me, I might engage her for a bit, but would I be ATTRACTED TO HER? Hell no. Now what if she kept changing subjects and kept desperately trying to find something I wanted to talk about… would that make me more likely to find her interesting?
It may appear to work marvelously because it gets new guys into set, because now they are actually talking to girls whereas previously they stood there and did nothing, having absolutely zero context. But the majority of people reading this do not need that kind of content to be interesting to women. Learning girly topics of conversation WILL get you to open more sets consistently – but it’s under an entertainment / girlfriend frame, and while things will seem great that night, she will be almost guaranteed to flake. You won’t get laid.
I’ve questioned SHBs (after I’ve slept with them and they’re more honest) about this. These are girls who go out and are almost always the hottest girls in the club, wherever they go. This is what one of them told me:
“Yeah sometimes we talk to guys out of pity. If a guy seems really weird or is dressed gay or something, we’ll talk to him just so we can laugh about him later. It’s fun. He thinks he’s getting somewhere, but then at the end we run away from him laughing.”
Girls will talk to sufficiently weird enough guys who “seem gay” for THEIR OWN ENTERTAINMENT. This is a fact, and very common with hot girls. They will sit there and eye code each other, loving it, not because they are sexually attracted, but OUT OF PITY. Don’t design your game so that you are becoming this type of guy. Sure you are opening more sets, but it’s for the wrong reason.
Sticking Point #3.
Demonstrating Higher Value. The reason why this is detrimental once again goes back to the mindset behind it. Feeling the need to demonstrate higher value is the same feeling that an AFC has when he starts bragging about his job or car or girls he’s banging. Sure, you are using a more sophisticated technique, but the mindset and beliefs behind it are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Never go out of your way to demonstrate higher value. Assume higher value! You’re the fucking man! You have higher value automatically!
I tell plenty of stories in set, but I do it for fun, because I’m having fun doing it — not with the intent of “proving myself” to the girl.
Sticking Point #4.
It is impossible to fake disinterest 100% of the time. Even if you memorize 5 stories, 3 teases and absolutely MASTER the backturn, it doesn’t matter because you’ll fail the next test she throws at you. Women are CONTINUALLY testing guys they are attracted to, and most of it doesn’t fit a predetermined pattern — IT’s NONVERBAL. I get tested all the time by women. They’re thinking “Who the fuck does he think he is, this skinny little fucker… I’m gonna see if he’s for real. I hope he’s not wasting my time.” So they have to test you. They don’t want to fuck some ingenuine guy that faked the first 10 minutes really well. You have got to be the real deal through and through, my friend. And faking any more than you can back up, will just insight more intense tests which you are bound to fail.
Don’t fake disinterest unless you can back it up 100%.
Sticking Point #5.
Relying on IOI’s in order feel like it’s *on*, instead of assuming attraction. Thinking too much and calculating your behavior based on watching for IOI’s. Don’t wait around for IOI’s before feeling good about the sarge. Her interest will be based on your vibe anyway, and if your vibe is dependent on watching for predetermined IOI’s, then you are leaving it up to chance.
Let’s face it, most IOI’s that people look for are pretty ordinary behaviors that women exhibit when you talk to them anyway. Some of the popular one’s I’ve heard are:
She asks you where you’re from – This is one of the most common pieces of smalltalk when you’re first getting to know each other. She may be asking you this just to be friendly, it doesn’t mean she wants to fuck you.
She touches you – women are actually more likely to touch you if they aren’t as attracted to you, as a way of playing with you. If a woman senses extremely high value, and is a bit intimidated, she is less likely to touch you. She is also less likely to touch you first if you are very direct. Of course, if you don’t even have a chance, she won’t touch you at all. Either way, unreliable as an IOI.
Remember, one of the two things necessary in pickup is the belief that the girl wants you. It may be difficult to believe at first but keep reminding yourself of this, and train yourself to see *everything* she does as an IOI. Is she looking at you when you talk? It’s on. Is she contributing to the conversation? It’s on. Is she standing in your physical proximity? It’s ON!
Sticking Point #6.
Dropping the personality that initially attracted her as a part of a “phase shift”, mistakenly thinking it takes X amount of time to attract a woman, or feeling the need to “transition into” X,Y or Z.
It sounds like three different points, but really they all stem from the same type of beliefs and mindsets. They come from leftover society programming like “It takes a long time for women to become attracted.” or “Men have to earn a woman’s attention and attraction.”
If you do actually do well to convey a fun personality to a chick in the first few moments of meeting her, such that she is attracted to you, you should maintain that same fun personality while getting to know her better and deepening your connection. Intersperse your c+f and playfullness with your rapport. But at all costs, stay congruent and do not become someone else entirely.
On the flip side, do not stay in a perpetual attraction stage where you are running material for the upwards of 10 – 20 minutes. That is WAY too long. If you use a couple of fun pieces to open a set, and they respond well to that, they have already made a positive judgement of you. Keep it light on the material and rely more on sharing positive energy with the set, and particularly your target.
Also a lot of people believe that you need a ‘transition’ to do certain things – especially kinesthetic related actions like touching, kissing, and cavemanning. You do not need a transition for these types of things. You just need to do them with the full certainty that she will enjoy it. Decide what you are going to do, and do it like you mean it.
If you’re going to make the transition to natural game, start out simple. It takes some getting used to, and requires attention on a couple of different levels. It may seem awkward at first, especially if you are use to the traditional indirect game model discussed above. But if you work with it and gain even just a baseline competence, you will:
-Improve your closing rate, avoiding ‘sexless frames’ -Reduce your flaking -Focus more on the interaction and enjoying the process -Allow your true attractive personality to bloom -Develop an incredible belief system
If you would still prefer an indirect type of approach based on routines and canned material, it would surely be beneficial to implement these mindsets anyway, along with correcting all of the previously mentioned sticking points. It can do nothing but improve your results.
Of course there are some differences that some may consider to be drawbacks:
-Her initial impression of you becomes increasingly important and is predominantly visual and auditory based. This doesn’t mean you have to be good looking, but it does mean you need a tight “image” including style, bodylanguage, tonality and facial expressions. She is going to size you up based on your energy and vibe, and will interpret everything you say through that filter.
-There is no more masking insecurities behind indirect techniques. You will be forced to confront your limiting beliefs head on, and handle them once and for all. I actually think this is an advantage, but it may be scary for some people to confront their deepest fears and depend on their core identity to attract women. Guys with self-hatred issues and poor self image may shy from this type of thing, telling themselves it would never work, despite the fact that it is the solution to all of their problems.
-Your opening percentage will be lower. You will get blown out faster from certain sets. You can persist on these, but it is likely that they would have not led to anything anyway. In this way, it acts as an efficiency screen and which saves you from wasting your time.
Naturalized Seduction Model:
1. Assume Attraction, adopt mindset that you are going use your personality to make her feel great. 2. Open direct. This includes direct compliments on her beauty or remarks about the environment, or even a simple “Hi.” If you are still hesitant to use direct openers, ask her for an opinion that you’re actually curious about. Your opening bodylanguage MUST be congruent to your intentions. 3. Go directly to a vibing / rapport type of interaction. Be playful with her and get to know her. If you tell stories, make sure they’re fun, and not meant to impress her. Lead the interaction via a continuous flow of action. (explained below) 4. Lead smoothly and confidently to escalation. This could mean you instadate her, venuechange her or close her. 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4, until you isolate and fuck her.
This is a very simple structure, but it’s effectiveness depends on the mindsets in the next section.
4. Designing the Frame for Endgame
Natural game is based more on mindsets than anything else. Adopt the mindsets, and allow the techniques to flow. You will find yourself inventing your own tips and tricks and posting them on here for others to check out.
Mindsets are essential to any game, particularly one with minimal structure such as the Naturalized Seduction Model.
The game starts before you walk up. A woman’s impression of you is largely determined by what she sees before you open your mouth – that combined with the impression you make on her in the first few seconds upon opening. People have a tendency to generalize the type of person you are as fast as possible, which makes everything in the beginning very influential on the remainder of the interaction. I think that it is often downplayed how important it is to have a very strong visual image based on your style, dress and bodylanguage. You will hear girls often saying ‘he was cute so I talked to him’ or ‘he was cute so I let my girlfriend stay and talk to him’. Do NOT underestimate the impression you are making visually. We talk all the time on here about it being a limiting belief that you do not need to be handsome, but that does NOT apply to your style, overall grooming and bodylanguage. This stuff is vital.
One of the reasons why I avoid opinion openers is because of the subtle frame of *needing something from someone*. Sometimes I think they are about a half step up from a person in the mall asking you for a few moments to fill out a survey — very unromantic and asexual. This is just me however, and I do know a few guys who use them with great success because of their high consistency of opening. It is a matter of preference, I suppose but I like to start the romantic vibe from the very instant I walk up. I don’t give up any power by needing someone’s opinion – the girl’s #1 objective is to IMPRESS ME from the very start.
Teasing, C+F, Busting:
Some people don’t like to combine this type of thing with their direct game. To me, this is one of the best parts about direct game. I love teasing and busting on girls. The beauty is, if you are running a direct game, she KNOWS you’re just playing with her.
The way I like to think about it is ‘floating’ your indirect tech (c+f, MCR, busting, push/pull) above a very solid and confident direct vibe. That is you are vibing direct with your bl, facial expressions, warm tonality, but at the same time having fun with her. You are making her feel good through humor because you enjoy her.
Affecting her Emotions:
It is a well known fact that we should engage girls on an emotional level. Touch her emotions. Trigger her emotions, yet people are still confused about how to actually do this. You don’t ‘talk about emotions’ with her. You cause her to experience different emotions through a variety of ways. Off the top of my head I can think of:
-Displaying your emotions through facial expression and tonality when you tell stories -Talking about your passions, let’s her have a taste of your potential emotions directed toward her -Being unpredictable, her uncertainty will cause emotional response in her -Creating situations where she experiences an emotion (ex. SOI’ing her and then not calling her for a few days – she’s ecstatic, and then curious and scared)
There is no set structure to pick-up. We are artists, remember? You are creating the experience for her so that it is unique. It’s fine to follow a predictable structure at the lower levels, but it’s like a kata in martial arts. When it comes down to real world situations, while having a loose structure you must adapt and improvise in an aesthetic way. Take pride in your work and create a wonderful EXPERIENCE for the woman. Give her the fantasy. Allow her dreams to come true. Be that man she’s been waiting for.
Closing / Venuechanging:
The state of mind you should have when interacting with a chick should be one of ‘relaxed and relished certainty’. Don’t rush things. Don’t ‘watch’ for IOI’s. In other words, you shouldn’t be dependent on her, or too reactive to her. Imagine being a hunter with a high powered rifle, and you’re hunting a dear in some enclosed space. You know that any moment you CAN kill the dear – but instead you choose to relax and enjoy the experience because of that certainty. You continue to relish in the experience, enjoy the chase, and do it when at the absolute perfect moment. It also reminds me of having some kind of dessert or maybe a delicious bottle of champagne that you could open at any moment and enjoy, but you put it off, because you’re enjoying the anticipation so much. Treat closing a woman exactly the same as these types of moments. Enjoy your interaction with her being 100% certain that it will lead where you want it to later on.
5. The Continuous Flow of Action
One thing I am realizing over and over again:
*The time factor is completely irrelevant to pickup.*
Time is usually a huge limiting belief for most people. People generally feel that girls need some quantity of time in order to:
-become attracted -become comfortable -leave a venue with you -provide contact information that won’t flake -become turned on
This again, is leftover society programming. Let go of the need to make pickup difficult or complicated. In some ways it is kinda complex, but release the desire to make it so.
My flaking ratio is very good. Not 100% perfect, but pretty damn close. The average time it takes for me to get a non-flaking phone number is between 30 seconds and 5 minutes. No more – it’s just not necessary. Let me explain why:
After a first meeting, she is going to walk away with some kind of impression – a memory of the encounter. Now the way the mind works, is that it distorts time around really strong impressions. We remember each event as a series of mental pictures and sounds with varying intensities. The intensity is determined by the emotions present at the time, and how rare or scarce those emotions are. If you walk up to her like no man ever has, and completely rock her world for a few moments, thrilling her with your masculine vibe, she will never forget you!
Thinking back to the encounter, it’s very hard to determine time objectively. She’s not thinking “Well, he walked up, and said a few things to me, but only stayed and talked for 3 minutes. I don’t think I should meet with him – that’s not enough time.” What she is thinking is “Wow, this guy came up to me, and he was amazing. It was so romantic and seemed so right. He was cute, charming, and he made me feel so good. I can’t wait to see him again!”
Only do what you need to create a strong impression on her – and that impression is completely time-independent. It is more based on:
Visual Impression / Identity – BL, style, facial expressions Auditory Impression – tonality, pacing and rhythm Emotional Content – vibe, connection, expression of emotion Continuous Flow of Action ->
The Continuous Flow of Action is a fancy way of explaining ‘smoothness’, and it achieves a couple different things: -Let’s you take the lead and control the encounter -Allows her logical mind to shut off -Let’s her trust you and feel comfortable immediately -Makes everything seem ‘right’ and natural
A continuous flow of action is best described by a LACK of the following things: -weird pauses and indecision -hesitation -waiting -looking for approval or other responses (IOI’s) -overanalysis -overthinking
While you should not do these things, it is even more important that SHE does not do these things. In order to achieve a continuous flow of action, you need a minimal structure, quick responses and a lot of confidence. I will illustrate with a few examples.
Cold Approach (Assuming time is important)
Guy walks up, delivers opener goes into story.
Girl reacts positively.
Guy feels he needs more attraction, goes into another story, irrelevant to first one.
Girl reacts positively again.
Guy waits, thinks of what to do next.
Guy starts getting some rapport, asks questions.
Guy waits some more thinking he needs more time for a solid close.
Guy asks some more questions, unsure if she’s attracted enough, looking for IOI’s.
Girl is confused about his lack of confidence and doesn’t understand his true intentions so says she’s gotta go.
Guy tries last ditch effort and attempts to close.
Girl doesn’t give number, because she’s being congruent with step 9.
Cold Approach (Continuous Flow of Action)
Guy walks up, delivers opener goes into story.
Girl reacts positively.
Without hesitation, guy immediately starts to connect, asking basic questions. (School, work, etc)
Guy teases a bit about her answers.
Guy realizes he doesn’t have much to say, so gets to the point.
Guy says “Well I’m off to meet some friends, but let’s do coffee sometime.”
Because guy is clear and confident, girl agrees, solid close.
Back to your place (Assuming time is important)
Guy walks girl into his place.
Girl sits down on couch, guy does also.
Guy thinks about what routine he needs to spike BT.
Guy starts spouting non-sequitur routine to give her time to be turned on.
Girl confused, closes up a bit.
Guy not seeing IOI’s, waits, thinks of another routine, starts to deliver it.
Girl gets up and says she has to go.
Back to your place (Continuous Flow of Action)
Guy walks girl to his place.
Guy tells girl to take her shoes off.
Guy sits her in front of the tv, and turns it on.
Guy goes to fridge and prepares 2 glasses of red wine.
Guy comes back and toasts to good times.
Guy tells short joke, girl laughs.
Guy goes for kiss.
The idea is that you provide her with instructions at every point and make it clear how she should respond. Intentions are always clear, actions are always confident and calculated. The man knows the entire plan from point A to point B, and always assumes she’s ready to go. No hesitation, no indecisiveness. This is truly what attracts women – much much more than *any* canned material. Her emotions are engaged 150% on overdrive. You are putting her IN THE ROMANCE NOVEL.